Dr. Kortni (00:01)
I am so happy to have this incredible guest. Just a moment ago, I just finished telling her how I truly admire her work. And Emma, I do. I feel like you and I are twins on so many different levels in regards to being a journalist and people who are really focused on
Emma Thomasson (00:14)
You
Dr. Kortni (00:21)
really shifting the way newsrooms look at well-being, and particularly in the workplace. I'm so happy that you're here.
Emma Thomasson (00:29)
Thank you very much for having me. I'm delighted to be here and have this conversation.
Dr. Kortni (00:34)
Well, thank you. first, when it comes down to leadership in the industry, give us an example of a leader that was really impactful in your life in a positive way.
Emma Thomasson (00:46)
Okay, so a couple of names kind of jump into my mind. I worked for Reuters for very many years. most of the bosses that I can think of, you know, come from Reuters. And I think the name that comes to mind, you've put me on the spot. had the first leadership role that I had.
was in the Netherlands. I was the bureau chief there. I was pretty young. this is 2004. And I went into a new leadership job and I had a really supportive boss in that role. He was a remote boss, so he was sitting in Paris and I was in Amsterdam. And he was just somebody who really paid attention to people.
you know, took time to listen to people. He was managing France, the Netherlands and Belgium. So he had like a huge kind of huge empire already of journalists that he was responsible for. But I never had the sensation that he didn't have time, you know, he just took the time to listen to people. that that's who comes to mind.
Dr. Kortni (01:49)
That's interesting. I love that you share that, because I can only imagine his responsibility of having such a large, I feel like I'm minimizing it by saying area in regards to all that he managed. But what stood out to you the most is the fact that he is an active listener. Has any of his approach influenced you?
along the way.
Emma Thomasson (02:15)
Yeah, definitely. mean, you know, it's actually the first time I've thought about him in a while, but I think back then at Reuters, I'd actually had some proper leadership training. Reuters kind of invested in people's management training as well as, you know, being a journalist. And I think
a kind of combination of the fact that I'd actually done some training and then I had this great boss, definitely influenced me. I think what's so challenging in our industry actually, and I've thought about this a lot recently as well, now that I'm kind of active in this training area is that so many news organizations, they value journalistic skills, you know, the skills of being a great reporter.
But too few of them actually invest in kind of leadership skills or in even thinking that that's important. know, people who are great journalists get promoted into leadership positions without any training and kind of just expected to be able to do that job. And I think it takes really, you know, different skills than the ones that you need to be a journalist. And I'd even go as far as to say that
some of the qualities that make people great journalists or almost precisely the opposite of the qualities that you need to be a great leader. And so I think often journalists, when they're promoted into management roles are set up to fail because they're not given those skills and the support that they need in those roles. And so, yeah, thinking back to that experience, I did have the support and I did have the training. So I was pretty lucky.
Dr. Kortni (03:51)
I'm interested to learn more about Reuters and their training. Tell us, walk us through some of the elements of what that looks like.
Emma Thomasson (03:58)
Okay, so this is the sort of 20 years ago and back then Reuters was a different company. know, since then, obviously Reuters has been bought by Thompson. Back then Reuters was a news agency, but it was also a big business, know, selling business terminals to banks. And that was, you know, how Reuters made most of its most of its income. Obviously, the news was kind of going to those terminals as well.
And because it was a very business oriented organization, they sent journalists like me who were going into management roles on management training with business people. So I didn't go on a kind of management training course just for journalists. went with people from the sales part of the business, lawyers, know, people who, who were in totally different parts of the business. And
Yeah, and it was a kind of year long, I mean, not full time year long, but it was residential training spread over a year. And the reason I've been thinking about this recently is I just happened to find all my learning materials in the cellar when I moved house last year. And I kind of rediscovered the files and the books and the things that I had from that course. And it just reminded me actually how lucky I was to have had that.
had that training. It was kind of back in the day when, I don't know, guess, Reuters had the money to invest in that kind of thing, but also this mindset of thinking that, yeah, our journalists need to be properly trained as managers.
Dr. Kortni (05:31)
That's interesting. I find that really fascinating because one of the things that I did three weeks after starting my job as a news director years ago, I went into an MBA program and obtained my MBA. And what I love what you shared is the fact that the management program really partnered you with business leaders.
and those that are very strong in terms of their business acumen. Were there any pros and cons to that? Meaning when I think about my MBA program, it taught me about business and it taught me about being a strategist and it taught me about management, but there wasn't a specialized component as it relates to news.
Emma Thomasson (06:20)
Well, I think, yeah, what you're highlighting is valuable. The fact that, you know, the business of journalism and the business of running newsrooms is quite different from, you know, running other organizations. And I think actually that's often given as an excuse for why the media business doesn't need this kind of training, because we're somehow different from
other businesses or from other professions. But actually, I think so many of the insights that you get at a business school training or at this kind of leadership training that I did is totally transferable to the media business. And I think there's a real resistance in our industry to thinking that we can learn something from other sectors. I mean, in my job as a journalist, I was also a business journalist. So I reported on companies.
And in the last 10 years, I reported on the kind of retail and consumer goods sector, but also the startup scene. I'm based in Berlin. There's a lot of, a lot of really successful startups here. And just looking at those companies and how they kind of have creative, you know, business practices. I just kept thinking, like, why don't we do any of this in the media industry? Not just in terms of how we manage people.
but in how we manage processes, how we come up with new ideas, how we implement projects. I just see that. I I think there are obviously some media organizations that have done a good job of taking best practice from the business world, but I find too much of the industry has this kind of thinking, we're somehow special, we're somehow different. We've got nothing to learn from other sectors.
Dr. Kortni (08:06)
love that you shared that because one of the things that came out of my program was seeing things so differently. And once I went through that process, I am no longer that person prior to the program because it shifts the way you see things, your mindset and valuing models to replicate. And I'm curious because I want to kind of dive even deeper in terms of your
your personal experiences. know that you mentioned going through a personal experience with burnout back in 2014. And I wanted to know what that looked like for you and what was the pivotal moment that brought you to where you are professionally.
Emma Thomasson (08:48)
So the experience with the great boss that I was talking about, that was the beginning of kind of 10 years of being a manager of journalists. So being a bureau chief in two different places. I was in Amsterdam, then I was in Zurich and I was the bureau chief in both of those countries. So running teams of journalists. In each country, I had one child. So I was also, you know, the mother of small children who I was.
moving around the world without, you know, any family in either of those cities. So kind of dealing with having the pressure of a high stress job, managing my family managing the moves as well, you know, from one country to the other. for me, in terms of the burnout, it actually happened after I stopped those jobs. So I got to the point where
I moved to Berlin where I now live with my small kids. it was actually when I slowed down that I realized that I'd been kind of running on empty for a long time. but it wasn't just the sort of stress of all that many, years of having worked at that pace. I think, and you know, I've been very active in this, this whole area of mental health since then.
and to start with, when I would talk about this experience, I would talk about burnout and about how that related to workplace stress and so on. But I think for me, there were other issues actually that partly contributed to that burnout. And that is also to do with motherhood. And it's not just to do with the pressure of the journalism job and the management and everything else, but there was also a lot of frustration that I couldn't.
sort of be the parent that I wanted to be and keep doing the job at the high level that I wanted to do. And there was a lot of kind of anger and frustration around that as well. And I think that actually contributed to the burnout just as much as the stress. So yeah, so I mean, these things are obviously always complicated, yeah, it was kind of, it was coming down from the, from the real stress and then feeling like, I've given up.
this job, this, this, this bureau chief job that I love because partly because of, you know, family responsibilities and being really frustrated about that. So yeah, lots of things.
Dr. Kortni (11:12)
Wow.
Yeah, well, I really value that you shared that because I think it's so important when we are looking at our work, right? It's looking at our life. And it's interesting because I remember recently facilitating a training session and someone shared with me, well, why would we even matter about thinking about well-being at work? And I'm like, why not?
course to me, and I'm biased because I its my area, but it's so important to think about the whole person. And as a leader and a manager, you know, when I was in newsroom, I thought that way. Now I'm a chair of the department at a university and I want to know, how to go about supporting my team when it comes down to being a caregiver, a parent.
I think all of those elements are so important. I'm so glad that you shared that because I think it's something as leaders that we need to always make sure that we are being vigilant and supportive about. You mentioned your time as part of the
peer support network at Reuters? how did it encompass that?
Emma Thomasson (12:21)
the peer support work came later. so after I suffered from a burnout, around that time, just sort of, it was happening at Reuters that colleagues were starting to get together and think about how we could help each other. And basically,
I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole kind of history to that, to where that came from. but it ended up, that over, over several years, we created a network of 60 to 70, peer supporters around the world for Reuters who would, who had some training and then would make themselves available to colleagues who were suffering from either just sort of everyday or everyday work related stress, but also
you know, obviously some more serious cases of trauma, vicarious trauma, PTSD and so on. So that came later.
Dr. Kortni (13:15)
I just, you know, I really find Reuters fascinating because here in the United States and me serving, you know, in my past work as a television reporter and a news director, I love the fact that the more I learn about Reuters, they seem to have such a proactive view in regards to supporting their team.
And you mentioned during the peer support component network, I should say, that individuals were trained in that area. I'm curious, what did that training look like?
Emma Thomasson (13:53)
mean, it's pretty simple at the end of the day, it's basically techniques of active listening. And, but I think it's, you know, it's interesting that you kind of pick up on that in terms of Reuters culture, because, I think to do this kind of work needs both a kind of bottom up sort of initiative, like this peer support network was, it was definitely kind of, it wasn't imposed from above. came from the initiative of, of people.
I mean, more senior people, but it wasn't kind of top down. But then very quickly it did get that sort of senior support in terms of funding for training, for example. And, you know, again, this is all about, you know, being in an organisation that's big enough to have the budget for something like this, because not only was there training for peers in basically an active listening techniques.
but also there was a kind of framework around the peer network with professional therapists who Reuters basically has an ongoing contract with a company that provides therapy in lots of different countries. And the peer supporters were kind of like a bridge to those therapists. But then those therapists were also available for us.
if we encountered a situation where we didn't know how to help somebody or we, you know, we felt kind of uncomfortable and they also provided the training for us. So, I mean, it sounds like, I think quite a lot of organizations think of this, the idea of peer support sounds very nice. You know, it's just about people, you know, helping each other in a newsroom, but I think to do it properly does require investment.
On the other hand, would say, I think this kind of thing happens in most newsrooms in an informal way. You know, there are always people in any group of journalists who kind of look out for other people. And so I think that's another bonus of having a formal system, which is that it supports and kind of rewards those people who are doing that kind of work anyway.
Dr. Kortni (16:00)
It's so impactful. It brings me to transitioning into your work. Tell us about how your training has impacted the industry.
Emma Thomasson (16:13)
That seems like a big mission. mean, I only left Reuters two years ago. So, and the step that led me to do that was partly through this peer network. I decided to get a qualification myself as a leadership coach. So I did a coaching qualification and that then sort of opened the doors to thinking, I could do something different, you know, outside of Reuters.
Dr. Kortni (16:17)
You
Emma Thomasson (16:35)
I must admit that when I left a couple of years ago, I didn't have a kind of master plan of I'm going to start doing training in this area. It just kind of came to me, I think, partly because, you know, because I had done that work through the peer network at Reuters. And in terms of that, how that's happened kind of organically, like I said, without like a master plan.
What I've done a lot of in the last couple of years is training journalists about topics around stress management and mental health. But in my mind, what is more impactful is training and coaching managers to change the culture in organizations. Because I think...
You know, we can try and help the individual journalists on the individual level, but unless we change the actual culture of the newsroom, then, you know, you're expecting a lot to ask individual journalists to kind of save themselves, I suppose.
Dr. Kortni (17:34)
really resonated with me because that's one of the things I, eventually when I made my transition out of my PhD program, my focus was on journalists. And then I was like, wait a minute, but something really,
resonated in regards to my workshops. I was hearing more and more about, it be great if my manager valued this? And I go, in my head, and I, you know, it needs to be expanded in regards to not just focusing in on journalists and how they can empower themselves, but empowering leaders to make a shift in terms of culture. I'm curious about a personal story from someone who
has gone through your training that you sit back and you're very proud of that success story.
Emma Thomasson (18:24)
It's nice that you ask it that way, because actually something happened in the last couple of weeks. So somebody who took part in a, it was actually not a year long, but maybe we worked together for nine months. It was a combination of workshops and individual one-on-one coaching. And I don't want to give too many details because I don't want to give away who the person is,
She, we had our final coaching session and she told me that she was pregnant in the session. And she basically said, if it hadn't been for this program, she's a manager as well in a very, very stressful, big job in a, in a media organization. And she said, if it hadn't been for this program, I don't know whether I would have looked after myself enough or taken the time.
you know, to stop, to set some boundaries to allow me to, you know, get to this stage. So I'm not taking credit for an immaculate conception from a different country, but it was, it did kind of feel like, yeah, you know, it can make a difference. And obviously it's not just a difference in her life. I think the fact that she made those changes to allow herself to switch off from work.
but also to allow her team to switch off from work, you know, has changed the culture of her organization as well. So, you know, it has a personal benefit, but yeah, hopefully it kind of has a ripple effect through the organization as well.
Dr. Kortni (19:55)
Yes, it's so much about empowerment, right, of oneself and then also empowering their team. What are some of the things that you share in a training session that speaks to a news leader empowering their team in regards to wellbeing?
Emma Thomasson (20:14)
Well, I mean, I think one of the most important things is actually role modeling good behavior. So a kind of classic one is taking breaks and, you know, not sending messages in the middle of the night or on weekends, if it's not a breaking story. I think I actually heard this, this nice phrase on,
on a workshop that I was on with you, which is the concept of leaving loudly. And actually the woman that I was just mentioning, who I was coaching, she adopted that practice of leaving loudly herself. she wouldn't have, I don't think she knows that expression, but that's what she did. And in her case, you know, she was working long 12 hour days on really
Dr. Kortni (20:42)
I love leaving loudly.
Emma Thomasson (21:03)
like big projects. And she said, so the next day I'm going to tell my team that I need to go for a run or I need to, you know, leave early. I'm going to leave at one o'clock and I'm not going to do it in a kind of secretive way. I'm going to do it so they can see that I'm leaving so that they know they know they all know that I've been working overtime and I've been putting on putting in far more than my hours, but I'm going to show them.
And I think maybe these things particularly resonate with me because when I was a bureau chief, I didn't do any of that because I didn't feel particularly as a woman with young children. I was trying to prove myself all the time. I never wanted to show that I was, never talked about my kids. never wanted to kind of show that they impacted my life in any way. So I stayed, I did the classic thing. I stayed until my boss had left the office, you know.
I didn't leave loudly. And, and I think it's those things that can really have an impact on your team without you even having to kind of make a big deal about it. So, yeah, I think that's my number one thing is role modeling, sort of healthier working practices.
Dr. Kortni (22:19)
It's interesting you shared that, Emma. And Emma's talking about a session that she attended at the self-investigation, their first global summit on mental health, which was just incredible. I will certainly leave a link to that organization in the show notes.
And I love that you shared that because one of the things I'm really transparent about is how terrible I was at well-being when I was a reporter. And because I never want people to think, she must have been so per, no, no. And it's still a work in progress, even as a scholar, right, of having that balance.
Because one of the things I love was going through and learning so much more about your work and you mentioned vulnerability. Why is that even important in regards to, you know, going through the process of understanding the value of wellbeing?
Emma Thomasson (23:18)
mean, that totally connects with what I was just saying about leaving loudly, actually, because I think saying, need to leave now because I'm tired because yesterday I worked long hours in itself is kind of being vulnerable. It's saying I have limits and I'm going to protect my, you know, my
my health and wellbeing by leaving now and that's okay. But I think the topic of vulnerability, I mean, there's so many different levels. So even just talking about burnout like we've been doing now, know, being open about my experience. I mean, that was consciously part of our work at Reuters about peer support. We did a lot of conscious kind of communication around.
I mean, we were trying to de-stigmatize the topic of mental health, but the more I think about it, it isn't really just about de-stigmatizing mental health. This is about just good leadership in general. It doesn't really have anything to do with mental health. I mean, this is classic. And again, we talk about, you know, what you learn in MBAs and what I learned in my leadership training. You know, all the sort of science around good leadership says that
you know, one of the most important things that a leader has to do is show that they're not God, you know, is show that they that they too can make mistakes. Because if you don't do that, you don't create a climate where it's okay for people to, to ever admit they're wrong, or to ever say, got, you know, I made a mistake there. I mean, this is the whole sort of idea of psychological safety in leadership. And I really think that
It's a particular challenge for us in the media industry, this whole concept of, of admitting that we're wrong because I think journalists, you know, we think it's our job to be right. I mean, actually, if you think about kind of fact checking and that kind of, also the kind of journalism that Reuters does, it's all about getting it right, being accurate. And so to sort of publicly say, and the here I'm talking about more within our organizations that I'm wrong or that I'm weak.
or that I don't know something, we just don't do it. It's not like, it's not on our DNA. And I think that's actually a problem within our organizations, but I actually think it's a problem for the whole industry of how we operate. Fundamentally, if we don't think that we are ever wrong, it means that the media industry and the people who operate in it come across as quite arrogant, which I think contributes to the crisis of our industry, actually.
It's not just about wellbeing.
Dr. Kortni (25:59)
As Emma,
yeah, absolutely. As Emma is talking, I am shaking my head in full agreement on everything that you're sharing, Emma. It's interesting, just the other day, because being a chair at university and a scholar, I'm a professor of journalism and communications and a student, this is the end of the year where all of us just are.
stress because it's the end of the semester and the finals and all the things. And that student made a mistake and they were hard on themselves. And I told the student, it's okay to make a mistake. I said, I make mistakes all the time and today I will be making a mistake. And I share that because I wanted her to understand that I'm not perfect. And I wanted her to relieve herself, give herself grace in terms of
quote, being perfect. And the value of making a mistake is also a great learning component. So I love that you shared that because I think that that is something within leadership that we don't emphasize enough is saying, hey, you know, I made a mistake and being transparent in regards to that, which really frees our team.
Emma Thomasson (27:16)
Yeah, and it's not just about saying I'm in a mistake. It's sometimes about just saying, I don't know. I don't know the answer. Maybe you know the answer, you know? And actually it's really interesting in terms of sort of a training capacity. Cause I think when you're in a training room, you know, you feel like you're the teacher. I guess you know this from kind of the world of academia as well. You feel like it's your job to kind of stand at the front of the room and have the answers. But so often,
you know, especially if you're in a room with journalists or with newsroom leaders, like the answer is in the room. You don't have to know it. You just have to find the person in the room who has the answer. And as long as you kind of take that position of I'm the, I'm in charge here and my job is to know, then you miss out on all that other intelligence that's in the room. So yeah.
Dr. Kortni (28:06)
Absolutely,
Education and training is a partnership. Emma, I can talk to you forever. I can talk to you forever. I want our audience, our listeners to know about some of the great resources that you have because I spent a great deal of time on your website, which is really incredible. And one of the things that I value
is what you share in regards to your training, talking about resilience, talking about your advocacy. And then it also leads us in terms of your newsletter. So I would love for you to be able to share some of the resources that you have so news leaders on a global scale can certainly reach out.
Emma Thomasson (28:48)
Yeah, so thanks a lot. I do have a newsletter and it's been a bit of a journey. I started it just as a kind of creative outlet for whatever was on my mind, really a bit unstructured, I have to admit. But it's been really great to be able to write from a different perspective after having been a news agency journalist for my entire career and having to write in a very kind of
prescribed style without really showing any of myself. And actually, I mean, that kind of goes back to that whole concept of vulnerability. I think in terms of resources, yeah, you know, there's so many, I put resources into my newsletter. Obviously, you mentioned the self-investigation already. I'm also kind of...
connected with the Dart Center, they have lots of resources as well. I think when it comes to these topics about kind of newsroom leadership and culture, I did a course at CUNY, the entrepreneurial journalism course. I found that actually, like a sort of mini MBA for journalists. That was where I learned an awful lot also about kind of
entrepreneurial thinking. And I think some of the things we've been talking about, you know, how the how the newsroom culture needs to learn best practice from other industries. But I have to say, I think in this area of, of leadership and newsroom leadership, mean, CUNY does good stuff in, in the US. I teach at the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism in Oxford, and they run really great
leadership programs. But I do feel that this is an area where we need more resources, actually. think, you know, the self-investigation you just mentioned, they've produced a lot of resources on this great summit. But I feel like on the topic of leadership, you know, actually, I think so many of the models that we can learn from
you know, an MBA course or the kind of course I went on, they're not specific to journalism. And actually the resources and the models are out there. It's just that newsrooms are so resistant to adopting them. So the whole idea of psychological safety, you know, work of Amy Edmondson, I mean, she's been working on that for as long as I've been working as a journalist, but those models just haven't kind of made their way into the newsroom. So
I think it's also a bit about not just sharing the resources, but trying to make people realize there's a need for a mindset shift.
Dr. Kortni (31:28)
That's so important, right? In terms of being able to shift how we see things and to really speak up in regards to the silence that we've had so long in the industry when it comes down to well-being and thinking about well-being and being able to share it. That's why I'm so grateful that this time that so many of us like Emma are making noise and so grateful for it.
So I end every podcast with this question, Emma, and it is this scholar in me, I believe, because I'm so curious, because I look forward to looking back at all of these different definitions of compassionate leadership. What does compassionate leadership mean to you?
Emma Thomasson (32:13)
Yeah, you're really putting me on the spot now as a writer and a journalist, I would like half an hour to like make notes and refine it, but I'll try and do it on the spot. I mean, I think the most important thing about compassionate leadership is to, we started off with this topic is about listening. It's also about being open to hearing.
the different voices that you have in your teams and being open to difference. And then also about being kind of compassionate with ourselves as leaders. So I think that's about, like we were saying, like admitting that you don't have all the answers, admitting that you can't work 24 hours a day and also, you know, kind of
saying that's okay to your team as well while maintaining good high standards. I mean, at the end of the day, the reason we're talking about all of this is because we want great journalists to keep doing great work. But people can only do great work when they're in a good place and in a supportive environment.
Dr. Kortni (33:21)
Absolutely. Well, I treasure you for your work in creating supportive environment around the world. Emma, thank you so much for joining us today.
Emma Thomasson (33:30)
Thank you very much for having me. I love talking to you.
Dr. Kortni (33:34)
for tuning into the Compassionate Newsroom podcast. Together we can transform workplace wellbeing in news. If you found value in today's episode, please share it with a colleague to help foster a supportive environment in the industry. And don't forget to subscribe and also visit our website for more resources at thecompassionatenewsroom.com.
